Characodon in a breeding cage?

Illustrator posted: 26.02.2011

After all the more philosophical points i have a very practical question:

I have a pregnant female Characodon lateralis in a "goodeid community tank". I very much want some of the young to survive, especially because my only adult male is not completely healthy and I suspect that he might not fertilize the female again.

Would it be an option to transfer the female to a breeding cage (such a cage of fine white cloth, I think around 14 cm long), with dense plants added (Ceratophyllum), or would that mean so much stress that young will be born too early?

 

ncarrasco2006 posted: 26.02.2011

Hi, I put Xenotocas Eiseni females in those cages without problems.
Sometimes when I put the fish in the "cage" it dropped the fish in some ours, it think that the stress acelerated the proccess but the fish didn´t have problems.

Bests,
Nicolás.

 

Illustrator posted: 27.02.2011

Thank you for your reply!

I once had a female Gambusia holbrooki giving birth in a small separate aquarium. The female was OK, but the young died in a few days time. I suspect that the stress induced an early birth.

On the other hand: Xenotoca is much more lively than Characodon and Characodon is naturally more at ease between plants / in cramped surroundings. So I decided to take a chance and placed the female Characodon in a breeding net.

A note on a species combination in a single aquarium:
After last years xstensive discussion on "keeping species together or not" I decided to try a combination of species and added Xenotoca eiseni "San Marcos" & Characodon lateralis "Los Berros" to the aquarium in which I keep a breeding group of Ameca splendens (aquarium strain). I figured that the relatively large and agile young of Ameca would probably survive in the company of smaller species, which turns out to be correct. Xenotoca young also survive, but grow poorly at room temperature + (= 22 degrees centigrade) so I caught some and placed them temporarily in a warmer aquarium. I have several healthy females of Xenotoca so if some young are lost, there will likely be more litters to come,.hence I can take a chance with this species. With Characodon I am not having this luxury and intend to try to save young of this litter.

It is interesting to see how the adults of these three species deal with each other: no serious problems, the dominant Xenotoca is also dominant over Ameca males. Some fighting between males of these two species, but not more than between males of the same species. A subadult Xenotoca male occasionally courted both male and female subadult Ameca but the adult males limit their courtship to females of their own species. Some minor agression occurs between Xenotoca and Characodon females. These interactions would be an interesting study subject, but more so with species/populations that also co-occur in nature.

 

mandrade posted: 06.03.2011

Hi Paul and Nicolás,

Yes, some hobbysts in Portugal had success with Xenotoca cf. eiseni " San Marcos " giving birth in such breeding cases.
I am however absolutely against that procedure for a number of reasons, including stress.
I also understand that many of us are dealing with a shortness of room, so extreme solutions are sometimes the only ones.
By my experience with the 3 species together, mentioned on Paul's example, at least a great number of Caracodon newborn were always safe and sighted on the vegetation souroundings, at every litter born.
This had happens on a populated community in the wintering indoor facilities. Off course I am talking about a 200 litres and a dense vegetation tank, not a smaller one.
Please make use of a little 30 litres planted aquarium with oxygenated fine quality water and invest on an excellence diet for segregate females on the last period of gestation.
If you can't have this "luxurious" solution, at least try to find a way to provide a dense vegetation corner of your Goodeids tank and see if some of the newborn can escape. If this option doesn’t work with the first litter, than search for an alternative... but please avoid the breeding cage.
This is only my modest opinion

Best regards

 

Illustrator posted: 09.03.2011

I agree that we should aim to keep our fish with the least stress possible. I hope that we are not "keeping many exotic goldfish in bowls" ... Only in some specific cases it can be nessesary to temporarily subject fish to stress if this increases the chance that we can maintain them. In my case I am not sure if there will be more litters of Characodon in my aquarium. So the first litter is all I might ever see. Therefore I decided turn it around: first breeding cage (+ observing behaviour, which turns out to be calm, not neurotic - and yes I know, a calm fish can still be stressed), then, if there will be next litters (and when i have some more of this species) try alternatives.

The aquarium is 200 l and partly densely planted. Cryptocoryne affinis (my favourite under aquarium plants) is still growing increasingly dense and between crypts there is quite some java moss. So later litters (if any) I will certainly give a chance in the main aquarium.

 

ncarrasco posted: 10.03.2011

Hi,

I agree Miguel that his method is much more better than using cages. When I was talking about using cages, I implicitly assumed that if someone put a fish in a cage, it has a considerable big colony and the lost of the fish won't risk the population. More when we talking about endangered fishes!

Personally, I have lots of Xenotoca Eiseni (from “Tamazula” river). I have those in two tanks of 120 litres with java moss, artificial plants and some stones. I do not use natural plants because it requires a lot of work to maintain the aquarium, and to reduce the risk of parasite introduction. I do not move the females to other maternal tanks because I prefer to have a pseudo “natural selection” and that their parents eat some “weak” fry. Using a cage will save malformed fry.

Anyway, I highly recommend to save the first fries when you have a critical population (few fish), of course, using the method that Miguel propose. If you want to have more stock to give to another aquarist maybe the cage can be used, but it is better that instead of the cage you use a recipient with at least 7 liters and java moss (or a artificial plant) when the female is near to drop the fry.

Best regards

 

Illustrator posted: 10.03.2011

I really dislike artificial plants because they are too tough. In the past I tried with a bunch of artificial Elodea in an aquarium with cichlids and the fish frequently lost scales when they tried to swim through the artificial plants.

But I also like real plants. I prefer to buy them in shops that don't have a few fish in the plant-tanks, and then I don't think that there is much risk of introducing diseases. But actually I don't buy many plants: every now and then I have to throw a bunch to the compost to avoid having too many! I feel that real plants contribute to maintaining a good water quality as well as to the general appearance of an aquarium (from a human perspective).

I prefer growing Cryptocoryne species because:
- they are low maintainance
- fish don't eat them
- many are endemic to single streams, some are endangered
- to me they look good
- some species are "aquarium cultural hertiage" and are no longer available in trade: especially C. x purpurea (softwater species which I don't have) and C. affinis (of which I have 3 varieties).

 

Illustrator posted: 11.03.2011

I appreceate the difference in opinion here, but feel that I should add the outcome: the female Characodon lateralis gave birth to about 7 healthy and 1 dead young, in the breeding cage. The dead young was bigger than the living ones. The female fish is back to the main aquarium, the young will for a while be in another aquarium with Poecilia wingei.

 

Michael Koeck posted: 23.03.2011

Hi all,
I never tried this, so I can't give you any advices; My way in rare species, is to bring the pregnant female (when it is definitely pregnant, but not short before birth) into small tanks, about 10 liters each, air-filtration, half of this tank dense planted (or artificial substrate). Most of the time, it works well, but sometimes, I have dead fry, too. When I do it shortly before birth, the risks are higher to lose the brood, I mean. But sometimes, this is the only way to get young fish at all.
In bigger tanks (well, we should keep all species in bigger tanks, I presume, but that will be another topic), a dense planted area (maybe a third ot half) should guarantee enough reproduction.                                           

Cheers, Mike

 

mandrade posted: 27.03.2011

Hello again,

Yes, the breeding cages are tolerable in a very few situations, as you pointed out.
Anyway, for larger species that will not work.
With Goodeid species from running waters ( lotic environments ) either.
For those who have enough space try something like the small tank solution pointes by Nicolás and Michael.
My experience with Goodeids is rather modest. I have kept so far only 5 species.
Except for Xenotoca eiseni, none of the other species shown any signs of cannibalistic behaviour under the conditions I have kept the fish.
Even on X. eiseini the week instinct of pursuing new born ( and only during the first 48 hours or so ), simply vanish out after a few litters. From the second generation on, it was absent ( both indoors and outdoors groups ).
It seams that we can work a little bit in order to eradicate such tendency in some species.
On the other hand it might happen that with other Goodeids cannibalism behaviour might never disappear, has it is a natural instinct.
For those species in particular, our ambition of conservation might not be compatible with soft newborn safeguarding methods that result in only a very small number of survivals.
In any situation, if you do have enough room, please think about a 30 litres tank ( or other container ) with physical barriers ( railing, grating or network of bars ) and dense vegetation, as pointed at my website at http://www.viviparos.com/Aquariofilia/repaqua.htm.
If you can't get as large as 30 litres... start with 10 litres, but for larger species like Goodea please make use of at least 50 litres for this propose.
In any circumstance, if you place the breeding tank side by side with the larger one, where the rest of the group is living, the segregated pregnant females tend to be less stressed.
When the lights are off or when only the main tank is illuminated, the pregnant females can see clearly what is going on inside the larger aquarium.
My strategy it was placing two smaller tanks, side by side with the larger one. This means that if the larger one it was 50 cm wide, the smaller ones should be 50 cm length, in order to fit perfectly at the edges.
Once I have also tried the same system but using a battery of smaller tanks, side by side, at the back and sides of the larger one.
For a main tank with 1 metre length, I have placed 4 tanks with 25 cm wide, side by side in contact with the back glass of the major, plus two more at each side of the main aquarium but on the tops of the battery as well. Such small tanks were pregnant females could give birth had 50 cm length, by 30 cm height, by 25 cm wide. This means that the support base had 1,60 m long by 1,10 m wide, allowing this way a larger 1 m by 50 cm larger tank and 8 smaller 50 cm by 25 cm breeding tanks surrounding it.
Besides a more intimate contact between the females in gestation with the rest of the group, daily maintenance, water temperature and filtration it was easier like this. 
I hope this explanation it was clear enough. Anyway, please be my guest to further elucidative details and even a scheme of it.

 

Michael Koeck posted: 28.03.2011

Hi friends,

An interesting way, a friend (Herbert Stefan) of mine goes with all kinds of livebearers for more than 40 years, is to dim the light down to 10% per night (so the tank never goes completely dark). The females giving birth as well as newborn fry are able to see the "enemy" and can hide. His success: Maybe the last living strain of audax from Miller`s collection, dozens of Heterophallus milleri and rachowi, Gambusia krumholzi, a hundred of adult Xiphophorus signum, aso. The tanks are densely planted (and without any filtration or aeration !).

Cheers, Mike

 

Illustrator posted: 28.03.2011

I  think that both Goodeids and Poeciliids get used to the presence of small fish. The first litter is the first hours at risk, because the adult fish are not used to the small fish and will chase them as they chase Daphnia and other food. Once the small fish survive for some days, the adults are used to them and don't pay much attention anymore, unless if one moves in an unusual way. Of course fundamentally predatory species react differently ...

About breeding species for many generations: clearly this requires good skill and feeling, but i think that a "stubbornly keeeping the same fish attitude" is what really makes the difference between someone maintaining a strain and all others who breed fish for 1-2 generations and then switch to the next species.