Christmas for Characodons !
Submitted by Grigri on 24. November 2011 - 8:29
Good Morning ! It was told during the last meeting in Pont l'Évêque that something have to be done for characodons in El toboso and Amado nervo to reduce or may be extirpate the Gambusias from there. Michi Tobler speaks about an electro fishing... that could be effective in such reduced environements. Omar Dominguez made an estimation of the cost around 1.500 euros for the trip, lodging etc. for a team to go there. From the french group, we have some benefits from the Pont l'Évêque fish auction, more some personal donations... we are collecting them and quantity is growing but we will need more. If you have some funds to invest in the characodons survival, please, let us know ! Any comments welcome ! Alain
Forums:
We could maybe try to do
We could maybe try to do something with the Seriously Fish page since we are getting plenty of hits these days. To where would the money be directed Alain, and what exactly is it to pay for?
With Omar and his team I have
With Omar and his team I have been electrofishing in Mexico too with better results I think than Harro`s. I dont know why. If it is the solution I dont know actually - but it would be very good if it is possible to do something.
Thanks for all your comments
Thanks for all your comments ! it's great to see your reactivity ! I think Omar, Michi and others should have good ideas about the best and effective way to do this.For the moment it's only a project in fase of study.If you have some money to dedicate to this I supposed we could ask Don if we can go through the FishArk.Will ask him.Alain
Please don't be offended by
Please don't be offended by me asking, but what are the expected costs of a weekend of electrofishing in this case? To me, roughly 2 months of a decent Slovenian salary seems a bit a lot for a 1 weekend action in Mexico, but perhaps I am completely underestimating the reality. It would help to show some calculation behind the costs, like how much is lodging, how much is gasoline and so on ...
Hi friends: Add this topic: I
Hi friends: Add this topic: I think poisoning is not appropriate and I have definitely no experience with electrofishing. On the other hand, we should - like Alain suggested - create solutions for all Characodon-populations, means we need to evaluate status, threats and solutions including estimation of costs and - like you suggested, Paul - the calculation behind the costs. We need a coordination for this X-mas action, maybe Kees will do it, but he isn't registered on this side till now, so he can't see what we are writing. First: I will write him tomorrow, and second: I will pass over the first job to Fabien, namely to get the info from Mx by asking Omar and some others. Third: Me, for my part, I will ask a friend of mine who electrofished for several years nearly all biotops in Austria, so he knows what can be achieved by electrofishing. We need a strategy in cooperation with Mx to save the biotops, and I think best for all biotops of Characodon, and therefore we need exact analysis from the Aqualab for a longterm saving strategy.
Mike
Hello All, I just put a
Hello All, I just put a message received from Juan Miguel> Just this Saturday afternoon, a friend of mine, Marco Arroyo, has revisited the Characodon audax habitat at El Toboso and I was just informed that he has been able to still find them in one of the little dams down the main spring, where a few months ago I wasn't able to collect any, but Gambusia senilis. The population is clearly much reduced, and none remain in the main spring as he was able to attest, but they are still there! It may be that as in other springs where the Gambusia has been introduced many years ago, they will be able to prevail. I just wanted to communicate you this great news. With regardsJuan Miguel Artigas AzasSite EditorThe Cichlid Room Companionhttp://www.cichlidae.com
That is good news,but we must
That is good news,but we must be aware how quickly it could change again
Yes Nigel, I think it justify
Yes Nigel, I think it justify that something have to be done urgently,there is more hope for them, but we have to help them !
Reduced success expected
I have some experience in electrofishing and done it in Mexico myself. Unfortunately electrofishing is most suitable for larger fish. It is very easy to catch a 20 cm fish in freshwater, but difficult to get one of 2 or 3 cm. You have to be very close with your anode. And fish smaller than 2 cm are nearly not affected.
As far as I understand the habitats are flowing waters. Thus it would be most effective to catch as many native fish and invertebrates as possible, keep them aside for a few days and poison the water e.g. with rotenon. After a few days the native fish can be placed back. It's risky but the chances to exterminate the Damnbusia is bigger.
Harro
Christmas for Characodons
Alain,I recently participated in an auction and would like to donate the proceeds to the Characodon project. It is not much but I would like to contribute. How can I most easily get this money to the project? Thanks. Joel
Characodon
Hi All
It is great that we all want to help the Characodon,but we need Omar's input on the best option for each location so we can do it with the minimal disturbance to the fish and habitat.This is only my thought on the matter,as we do not want to rush things and maybe do more harm than good
I think the use of any poison
I think the use of any poison should be treated very cautiously indeed unless a detailed management plan, long-term field survey records plus exhaustive knowledge of local hydrological systems and their connectivity (both above and below ground) exist. Electrofishing is unlikely to prove successful but surely better that than rotenone application when dealing with such a highly endangered species? Physical trapping of Gambusia has proven effective for smaller habitats in Australia and New Zealand provided the correct equipment and strategy is used. Do we know if that option has been investigated?
I asked Anton Weissenbacher
I asked Anton Weissenbacher from Vienna Zoo about electrofishing, and after his opinion, electrofishing is indeed a possibility for small or tiny fish, but is has to be used a DC (direct current) equipment and the person working with this equipment has to be used to it and has to know exactly the conductivity of the water. Nevertheless, it won't be possible to get all the Gambusia out of the habitat ...
To my surprise he also mentioned Rotenon. He wrote me after 2 hours the poison can not be attested any more, but it kills not only all fish but at least all insects, too. No info about Crustacean. However, I would say no to any poison. The impact for the biotiop can not be valued in advance and when done, we cannot make it undone; it is his opinion, too, to think it over and over before using Rotenon.
He mentioned as a third possibility to work with gillnets. No chance to get all of the fish out but when done regularly a chance of population control, for the Characodon either.
For now all the best, Mike
Mike, I can probably get hold
Mike, I can probably get hold of some papers regarding physical removal methods for Gambusia e.g. using gill nets as you mention, if it would be useful?
Yes, indeed it would help,
Yes, indeed it would help, Matt!
Maybe there are other methods also useful, simply don't know which of them.
Mike
Did we do anything at all
Did we do anything at all besides discussing this "action"?
Hi Paul, yes, we did. Sorry
Hi Paul,
yes, we did. Sorry for bringing not all things up to date, as it is very much work for me at the moment with a new flat to repair, the Goodeid book, the preparing of the meeting and my family and zoo, I often do not find the time to write so muc; but as I found out, there are many of us, and i am a bit surprised, that the Forum is not so much in use as the yahoo Forum once before. Depends on the few people writing, adn the few interesting (?) topics...
@ your question: Alain Grioche and Kees de Jong took over the task to run this project. We selected a handful of specialists in Characodon (as there are: Omar Domínguez, Juan Miguel Aertigas Azas, Michi Tobler, James Langhammer and John Lyons) to discuss the possibilities of what we can do. A step by step plan has been developed, including electrofishing El Toboso 2 times per year for 2 times, evaluating all(!) known Characodon biotops to get info about concrete status, trends and threats now and prospected in future, then to build back-up ponds to keep all strains a live, either on the university area of Morelia, or - if there would be a way, that mekes sense - directly in the Durango area near their original biotops. Due to the political situation, all the criminality and drug-wars, Morelia is favoured...Futher steps are: Wake up the people at the habitats about the critical situation of these peculiar fish by info-panels and talks to the people. Next step, after calculating the costs, has been to try to find a funding party, which has been thought would be the Austrian Fisheries association, as it had been very interested in this project (as well as in the resettlement of the Zoogoneticus tequila, as this project has been formed out and calculated as well), but finally - about two weeks ago - unfortunatelly refused to fund; also a reason, why I not wrote something before because it sounded real good for both proejcts and I wanted to present both projects as brought to reality successfully...
This is the status at the moment: JMAA is evaluating the habitats time by time on his own, and we are going to find other parties to funds these both projects. We have collected money (Association France Vivipares and Poecilia Netherland), other parties as well (DGLZ, Missouri Aquarium Society), and there are steps undertaken to bring this money together, respectively to Morelia to fund these projects, also the money for the coming book at the end of the year will be used in that sense. Morelia is building 2 ponds at the moment to rescue the El Toboso audax and lateralis, a 3rd for a red population should be come soon.
Problems are: it is much money, and except aquarists, nobody seems to be interested in fund fish-projects, so it goes on too slowly, and we have no specialist in doing such a job, it would need someone with experience in collecting funds, in building up contacts and with the force to do it - simply). We would need a new Ivan Dibble...
Hope this answers the first of your questions, the others will follow:-)
Mike
Did you check with the MAVA
Did you check with the MAVA foundation? I hear that they can sponsor far fewer projects than they used to, but it doesn't hurt to drop them an e-mail. If they are interested they might then ask for some short project plan of a few pages and then, if they are still interested, for a worked out project proposal.